Ukraine flag Armor Games stands with Ukraine Ukraine flag
If you’d like to help, please consider giving to Ukraine Crisis Fund

ForumsWEPRThe Religion Debate Thread

705 198816
nichodemus
offline
nichodemus
14,920 posts
Grand Duke

So yeah, our threads on religion have long since died out, so I figured it would be time to start afresh here!

Do you believe God exists (I know almost all of you don't)? Do you feel religion is important today? Is it a force for good? Discuss everything related to that here!

I'm going to start the ball rolling:

We all know about the rise of ISIS and the terrible acts it perpetuates. Does that show that Islam and religion in general is an awful concept? Is it the people who twist it? Or is it fundamentally an evil force?

Roping in the WERP frequenters
@MageGrayWolf @Kasic @Hahiha @FishPreferred @Doombreed @09philj

  • 705 Replies
Ntech
offline
Ntech
258 posts
Shepherd

@Boofuss


If they turn back, then they haven't "given up" have they?

Yes, they have.


There is no backing for God existing beyond religious faith which = "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11: 1".

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the Universe had a cause.
4) A first cause must exist.
5) That first cause did not have a cause - it caused itself.
6) That cause is God.

@Boofuss, that is my argument. Study it closely.

Boofuss
offline
Boofuss
265 posts
Peasant

Yes, they have.

So according to you, people who commit suicide and people who DON'T commit suicide have both "given up"? How does that work?

Ok. I've read them CLOSELY.

So. None of those 6 points prove anything, they haven't so far, they don't each time you post them. YOu're good until you get to "God did it" because there's no proof of that. That's part of a debate, backing up your points with proof, which you can't, you make the claim, you back it up, that's how it works.

Your argument is "I have faith" which is a LACK of any evidence. You can't produce evidence for God, people can produce scientific backing for the Big Bang.

Ntech
offline
Ntech
258 posts
Shepherd

@Boofuss


So according to you, people who commit suicide and people who DON'T commit suicide have both "given up"? How does that work?

I do not understand what you mean...


YOu're good until you get to "God did it" because there's no proof of that. That's part of a debate, backing up your points with proof, which you can't, you make the claim, you back it up, that's how it works.

Ok. I am calling the being pointed out in 5 as God. Call it whatever you like, and replace 6 with that. But the fact remains, something that caused itself had to create it all, and the big bang did not cause itself.

FishPreferred
offline
FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the Universe had a cause.
4) A first cause must exist.
5) That first cause did not have a cause - it caused itself.
6) That cause is God.

@Boofuss, that is my argument. Study it closely.

This is my counterargument: 2 is completely unfounded and 4 is impossible. Your entire argument falls apart then and there.

Ok. I am calling the being pointed out in 5 as God. Call it whatever you like, and replace 6 with that. But the fact remains, something that caused itself had to create it all, and the big bang did not cause itself.
Thus far, the only justification you have come up with for the Big Bang being caused by something (instead of occurring spontaneously) is that it is an event. This raises a problem, because God, by any definition I'm aware of, is not an event, and therefore is not causable. God would have to be either a) uncaused or b) brought into existence by an event, and thereby "caused" to exist.

First, let's look at b: God is created by something. That something is not God, because God needs to exist in order to do anything in the real world, meaning that another superbeing would have to create Him. This leads us to the neverending chain of mailmen, to which you clearly objct, or some other entity that is uncaused (Snobgobgyz'zaz, again), to which you apparently also object.
Okay, so how about a: God is uncaused. This means that God is either spontaneously occurring, to which you clearly objct, or that God has no beginning. The latter is the only hope for your position, and it is very weak, because if God has existed forever (and can, you know, do things) causality must also have existed forever. If causality has existed forever, where is the need for God?
lozerfac3
offline
lozerfac3
978 posts
Farmer

Okay, so how about a: God is uncaused. This means that God is either spontaneously occurring, to which you clearly objct, or that God has no beginning. The latter is the only hope for your position, and it is very weak, because if God has existed forever (and can, you know, do things) causality must also have existed forever. If causality has existed forever, where is the need for God?
I would like to think that God is uncaused. But I'm confused why God would not be needed if causality has existed forever.
FishPreferred
offline
FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

Not needed for the universe to exist, contrary to what Ntech was trying to argue.

Doombreed
offline
Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

Ok. I am calling the being pointed out in 5 as God. Call it whatever you like, and replace 6 with that. But the fact remains, something that caused itself had to create it all, and the big bang did not cause itself.

Prove it.

HahiHa
offline
HahiHa
8,212 posts
Regent

Not needed for the universe to exist, contrary to what Ntech was trying to argue.

I agree with this statement, but if the line of argument is "God has existed forever, therefore causality has also existed forever", then isn't God's existence a given in this hypothetical situation?
FishPreferred
offline
FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

I agree with this statement, but if the line of argument is "God has existed forever, therefore causality has also existed forever", then isn't God's existence a given in this hypothetical situation?
Yes. I was telling him why his reasoning fails, not why his God doesn't exist. Even a universe that has God wouldn't need to be started by God.
Ntech
offline
Ntech
258 posts
Shepherd

@Fishpreferred


Thus far, the only justification you have come up with for the Big Bang being caused by something (instead of occurring spontaneously) is that it is an event. This raises a problem, because God, by any definition I'm aware of, is not an event, and therefore is not causable. God would have to be either a) uncaused or b) brought into existence by an event, and thereby "caused" to exist.

That is because God is self-existing, He keeps Himself in existance and always Is.

Boofuss
offline
Boofuss
265 posts
Peasant

The way you've worded it is that people who commit suicide "give up". But you have also said some turn back at the last moment from committing suicide which to me means they can't have given up. However you also disagreed with that, which means that to you, people who do commit suicide and people who don't commit suicide both give up. How does that work?

Ntech
offline
Ntech
258 posts
Shepherd

People who commit suicide give up, because they don't want to live anymore. People who don't commit suicide persevere - they don't give up.

Boofuss
offline
Boofuss
265 posts
Peasant

People who commit suicide give up, because they don't want to live anymore. People who don't commit suicide persevere - they don't give up.

People who attempt or who do commit, suicide, don't do so lightly, or at the first inkling of something wrong.

In the vast majority of cases it takes years to get to a point where it seems as though it's the only way to make the pain stop.

It's not about not wanting to live.

It's about a way out from the hell that person is currently living in, for whatever reason.

From the outside you can appear to have all the reasons in the world to live, people who care about you, a job you enjoy, money, nice clothes etc etc. For some people persevering through a living hell, daily, for years becomes too much to bear. No one can fight, alone, because that's how it sometimes feels, even when surrounded by people, forever.

For some people, life isn't a joyous, easy time. For some people life is a daily battle with themselves to see the good either around them or inside themselves, people who commit suicide don't give up, to them, they have no other choice.

It's not something that many people who commit suicide want to do, it's something that they have to do, either for themselves or for the sake of the people around them. It's not always a rational decision, it's definitely never taken lightly. It's definitely not just "giving up". It's the last act of someone whose despair has outweighed their hope.

Boofuss
offline
Boofuss
265 posts
Peasant

I also want to add that things for people can and do get better, there's help available out there, but for the sake of this point, during this debate, the points above stand.

HahiHa
offline
HahiHa
8,212 posts
Regent

Suicide is more often than not a consequence of severe depression or another form of affective disorder. Those are mental illnesses that can be treated - not considerate life choices...

Showing 631-645 of 705

We may use cookies to help customize your experience, including performing analytics and serving ads.
Learn More