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ForumsWEPR[necro] Satan-Angel or Dijinn?

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mbbs112
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mbbs112
198 posts
Peasant

Hi all
I was recently searching some stuff when i started wondering if Satan or Lucifer as called in the christian bible is an angel or a dijinn.
A dijinn is a creature that was created by God in Islam and it said that he was a Dijinn and that is why he disobeyed God while christian claim that he was an angel and 1 out of 4 Archangels of God.Whether or not you believe in God or not,what do you think Satan is?
Remember to put evidence or a source backing up your information*

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Ishtaron
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Ishtaron
359 posts
Blacksmith

Well, we can't make that move because in the Christian tradition, Satan was in heaven. This just isn't a place where demons reside, unless the nature of Satan changed.

In the book of Job (since Satan's fall from grace would have to take place before he tempted Adam and Even in Eden this would be long after he became a demon) it's said that Satan appeared before God in heaven and challenged God by saying that Job only had faith in Him because He gave Job everything he wanted. Whether this is proof he isn't a demon or not I'll leave up to you as the whole classification is pretty muddled by popular culture. But for whatever reason, despite his role as tempter, Satan is allowed to appear before God at will in order to manipulate mortals.

The latter would be true in the popular story of Lucifer and his fellow angels being cast from Heaven and becoming the devil and demons; but Ishtaron made a point of this not necessarily being part of the actual Christian tradition (depending on who you ask, I guess). Accessorily, one may argue whether the terms 'angel' and 'demon' reflect the actual nature of the being, or just the title/position.

It's pretty popular for Christians, especially priests trying to warn teenagers away from making a mistake, to say "Even in the eyes of the Lord, Lucifer still shines brightly." Essentially meaning that evil doesn't necessarily look evil. But it does seem to indicate that "demons" as fallen angels don't look like pop culture's depictions but are indeed still angels, just with a different role and allegiance.

During some roaming around on Google I found this site. My knowledge of Islam is largely restricted to a historical perspective so I have no idea how accurate it is, but according to this site it is possible that either through his disobedience Satan became a djinn or that the djinn are a class of guardian angels that exist on earth and are thus different from the angels of heaven, including the capacity for free will and rebellion against Allah.

WHDH
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WHDH
168 posts
Shepherd

Well I don't know about you but I was teached the chrystian legacy:

In the beggining there was God. He created angels. The most powerful of them was Lucifer and the second was Michael. Lucifer was so strong that he belived that he was more powerful than God, some angels were with him. But than God gathered the army of angels lead by Michael who beated the Lucifer and his angeles and pushed them to Hell. Here they grew in evil and changed forms to devils-deamons.But still today Hell is trinling to win. And their complete loss will hapen at end of Earth times when Jesus is going to come back.

231terminator
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231terminator
87 posts
Nomad

Despite the numerous typoes, WHDH pratically reflects what i tried to say earlier. i was mostly just joking that this is an exact mirror of the what is gods name thread lol. the only difference is what is satan

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,822 posts
Duke

Despite the numerous typoes [sic], WHDH pratically [sic] reflects what i tried to say earlier. i was mostly just joking that this is an exact mirror of the what is gods name thread lol. the only difference is what is satan

I still can't tell if you're joking. Looking at your previous post, it doesn't even come close to what WHDH said. And I still can't tell if you're serious about this thread being a clone of the 'What is God's Name?' thread. Just to be clear - it's not. That thread is all about reference (i.e. how do we refer to God). This thread about the nature of Satan - not reference. Even a cursory look through the posts/conversations should make it apparent that there is very little, if any, overlap between the two threads.

But for whatever reason, despite his role as tempter, Satan is allowed to appear before God at will in order to manipulate mortals.

Great point, Ishtaron. That defeats my point about demons not being the sort of entities allowed into heaven. This, of course, makes me wonder whether Satan is himself a demon or some other entity (e.g. angel/djinn) that rules demons). But clearly Satan - the baddest of the bad - at least has visitation rights into Heaven.

On a side note, through some other research (I was poking around and not keep track of sources - I'm sorry) one of the features of djinns is that they do have free will. I haven't come across any material that contradicts that statement.

But this brings me back to my original point, which ties in nicely with what WHDH said. My understanding of angels - and I mean one of the most fundamental aspects of their nature - is that they lack free will. So I really can't come to terms with an agent who lacks free will getting sent to hell - or even being punished for its crimes. This does assume that free will is a necessary condition for moral responsibility, but that's the standard line in ethics (though not every ethicist agrees (c.f. Peter Strawson)). Anyway, that's another matter entirely.

So I guess I have a few questions for anyone more knowledgeable about the topic (or willing to do the research).

1) Do angels, in fact, lack free will? And if so, was Lucifer/Satan a special kind of angel (say, an archangel like Michael) that did have free will?

2) Assuming that Satan was an angel, is it metaphysically conceivable that his nature could change from that of an angel to a tempter/all-around bad guy? Or does his nature need to change at all (I've actually forgotten why I've asked this since I started typing it)?

231terminator
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231terminator
87 posts
Nomad

i didnt mean it was overlapping i just meant it was similar, i meant i agree with WHDH btw. i just didnt word it the same cause im an idiot sometimes. i wonder what the next post will say?

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,822 posts
Duke

Aw, you're not an idiot at all! And I'm sorry if my response came of as harsh or anything like that - I certainly didn't mean it. I just think there are some really interesting issues in play here and I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.

Since you agree with WHDH, would you mind taking a look at my posts on the previous page? There are some questions there that I think make the story of Satan being an angel pretty inconsistent from a Christian perspective. But I'm just not sure. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I know that sometimes in Bible School, students are taught things that aren't quite right, but are maybe in the ballpark. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, since the full story would be incredibly involved and would likely involve some serious training in theology. But there are just parts of Christianity (like the nature of angels) that I'm pretty ignorant about.

brokersforex20
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brokersforex20
2 posts
Nomad

i agree with WHDH

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